Engine Mounts

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9 years 9 months ago #681 by Debi Shaimas
Engine Mounts was created by Debi Shaimas
Need to change the engine mounts on Serenity (hull #
110, built 1979 in Canada).

I remember a boat (Maggie Drum?) doing this in Australia with some issues over the bolts being glassed in. Can't remember the details or locate the thread.

Anyone changed the engine mounts? Any words of wisdom or experience on how to approach this job?

Thanks!

Debi
S/V Serenity
BYC, Panama

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9 years 9 months ago - 9 years 9 months ago #682 by Gerry O'Donoghue
Replied by Gerry O'Donoghue on topic Re:Engine Mounts
Assuming your setup is similar to mine its not a big deal (famous last words). Bolts are screwed into the molded fiberglass base which has an aluminum core. At least two of my bolts were frozen and sheared off which was a PITA. Keep in mind that I had no engine installed and had full access. Access for drilling out a sheared bolt would be an issue.



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Last edit: 9 years 9 months ago by Gerry O'Donoghue.

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9 years 9 months ago #690 by Scott Lee
Replied by Scott Lee on topic Re:Engine Mounts
We hired a yard (something we almost never do) in Solomons, Maryland to do ours this past summer. We weren't around when they did the work. They found most of the bolts were siezed and their final bill was more than double the estimate. The engine was in the boat at the time and I wonder, in hindsight, if it may have been easier to remove the engine for better access rather than trying to work around it?

Scott
Joie de Vivre #88

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9 years 9 months ago - 9 years 9 months ago #697 by Joe Barnes
Replied by Joe Barnes on topic Re:Engine Mounts
Hello all,
This is Joe, ex-Maggie Drum which is now in Australia with an Australian family. We sailed her from Washington state to Mexico then across the South Pacific where we sailed for two years, staying over in Whangarei, NZ, during the summers.

I did replace all the engine mounts on MD, but I did it in the local boatyard in Anacortes, WA, where I worked as an electrician and general marine tech. The owner let me keep her on the hard in his yard for 11 months while I did much of the major refit over the 5 years before we left. The only thing I never fixed was the leak on the port water tank.

Even though we had a "professional survey", the completely sheared off aft/port transmission mount was corroded through with what was left of the stud flush with the Borg-Warner transmission. We had the original Ford-Lehman diesel (great engine!). The forward mounts were under the "wings" which were bolted to the engine block. The aft mounts were connected to the transmission with similar "wings" so that the motor mount studs could be vertical. The solid mating of the transmission to the engine made it strong enough to support both with the aft ones to the transmission. The sheared bolt was the one which connected the wings to the tranny. I am sure most of your boats had a similar arrangement back in the 70's.

I could not even see the sheared bolt without a mirror and had very poor access since the transmission and the mount were inside, and very close to, the port platform in the engine room. I could not get in there except with an angle driver (battery, because there wasn't room for a bigger drill). I could not even get a punch on the stud to get a bit started so I could use an "Easy-Out" to get it out, which might not have worked in any case since it was very corroded. If I had made a mistake I would have had to remove the transmission and then fix that issue.

So I removed the tranny (by myself with one person helping to pull it out at the very end when it was almost completely unbolted). I propped the back of the motor with some wedged in lumber side to side of the inner hull. I decided to replace all the motor mounts since they were looking very tired. I analyzed the Maxprop, engine torque, shaft speeds, etc. with a proprietary software package in the shop and found that a different gear ratio would give us better speed and efficiency (which turned out to be true - one more knot and 20% less fuel). I traded the BW transmission to a shop 40 miles away that specialized in BW transmissions. I traded mine as-is for a transmission with the correct gear ratio (but with opposite rotation but the Maxprop could be switched). The "new" transmission needed a rebuild so with the help of one of the mechanics in the yard, I rebuilt it with new plates, etc. and gave it a good inspection.

Ok, after all this BS you don't need to hear, I used an hydraulic lift system (with multiple ends for different uses) to lift the engine one corner at a time. I put some 2x4 boards under the block (not the oil pan) and on the hull to spread the load, and then used the spreader of the hydraulic system to lift one side at a time high enough to get the old mounts out and the new ones in. I screwed them into the original holes. There were aluminum plates as in your picture, but as I recall there was something else glassed in to the hull below, which had threads. I did not bolt to the top aluminum plates. I did replace the aluminum plates with ones I fabricated in the shop. I put a thick piece of rubber between the steel mounts and the aluminum plates to prevent electrolysis. The threads to whatever was in the glass seemed good, and must have been, since we put lots of nm on her in VERY rough conditions at times. I did use a good anti-corrosion isolating coating (T-Gel) on the bolts just in case.

Putting in the aft engine mounts wasn't so hard after the tranny was removed, but of course, I had to stand on my head holding one hand on the slippery, sloped hull to work on the mounts which were forward of the access in the head. I cussed a lot but got it done.

I actually decided to put the "new" tranny back in by myself using ropes and blocks (may be that is what screwed up my back?). Bolting it back on was easy. I had to lift it with a similar manner to get it lined up with the wings to which I had previously mounted on the new motor mounts. I just rebolted the tranny to the wings with a socket wrench. This required a new alignment to the prop shaft by adjusting the motor mounts., etc. (harder than you might think). I also took the opportunity to put in a dripless seal on the shaft where it goes into the hull out to the prop since the tranny was out of the way.

A long story, but that was just one of the major items I reworked on the boat. E.g., I replaced all 13 of the through hulls so I didn't have to work and grease the old ones all the time.

So, it took a lot of work, and the use of the hydraulic lifter (think about the equipment the fire departments use to free people from crashed cars), but it was actually straight forward.

The mounts were easy but the alignment took a lot of work (adjusting four corners to align it all to the prop shaft)!

Hope this helps. Somewhere I have some photos but haven't found them yet. I will look some more in my CD collection.

Joe
Last edit: 9 years 9 months ago by Joe Barnes.

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9 years 9 months ago #706 by Debi Shaimas
Replied by Debi Shaimas on topic Re:Engine Mounts
Thank you everyone who responded. I have a better idea of what I am in store for now. Have started spraying the nuts and bolts every other day and will continue to do so until mid March and then we will tackle the job itself. I´ll report back on the results!!

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9 years 7 months ago #765 by Debi Shaimas
Replied by Debi Shaimas on topic Re:Engine Mounts
I´ve encountered a hic-up in replacing the motor mounts. Have devised what we think will be a solution and am posting the solution here in the hopes that those of you smarter and more experienced than myself can give your input.

In breaking the bolts for the existing motor mounts, we discovered that the two bolts which hold the bracket (¿¿¿ good word ???) to the stbd side of the transmission had sheared. [Gosh, think that´s where the rattle was coming from?] When I say bracket I mean the piece that attches to the transmission casing and through which the engine mount comes. There are 4 of these brackets in total, one for each mount. Two are attached to the transmission and two are attached to the engine. Sorry I do not know the technical term.

At any rate, the upshot is there are two broken bolts in the side of the transmission casing which we now need to drill out and retap, with little to no room to work in.

The idea:
1. Prop and secure the bottom of the engine with blocks.
2. Remove the bracket on the port side of the transmission.
3. Remove the 6 bolts which secure the transmission to the engine block.
4. Turn the transmission 90 degrees so that the area with the broken bolts is facing upward rather than to stbd.
5. Drill and tap.
6. Turn the transmission back to its original position.
7. Install the new motor mounts, then install the brackets.

Does this seem do-able? Would there be particular things to watch out for (as in, is there a gasket between the transmission and the engine and, if so, could we use that "make a gasket" goop stuff)? Any ideas or thoughs would be greatly appreciated. It appears that to remove the transmission we would need to lift and move the engine forward.

Thank you everyone!

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9 years 7 months ago #766 by Joe Barnes
Replied by Joe Barnes on topic Re:Engine Mounts
If you can move the engine forward enough to give the transmission clearance to come out forward, that might work. As I remember though it is too long and the space in front of the engine is too small, but you may have a different layout than we did.

I took the transmission out through the aft head sole. It is an effort to get your head in there but it is doable. I used a socket wrench with an extension on the bolts holding the tranny to the engine. The aft engine seal and the forward transmission seal keep the oil in each out of the space in between, so there isn't a gasket. It is a metal to metal face. Obviously you have to support the tranny somehow so it doesn't fall in the bilge. It will come out the hatch with some work and that will make it much easier to drill and tap on a bench or floor. It goes on the reverse way.

Hope that helps. Good luck.
Joe

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9 years 7 months ago #767 by Lew Streeter
Replied by Lew Streeter on topic Re:Engine Mounts
I haven't heard of any one doing what you suggest. Your only constraints will be if there is room to rotate the trans which i doubt after having to replace the cooler hose on the starboard side but if you can raise the trans you might be able to do it good luck.
If it does not rotate then you will have to take it out and you do not have to move the engine forward.
There is no gasket between the trans and engine.
Lew

Lew Streeter
Free N Clear
Hull #70

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9 years 7 months ago #769 by Robert Strickland
Replied by Robert Strickland on topic Re:Engine Mounts
We had the same problem on Allegria after a rough passage into Salinas PR. The bolts holding the bracket to the transmission sheared off. We were able to use a very sharp chisel and hammer to tap the bolt and get it turning enough to back iit out and grab it with pliers. It required a helper to hold a mirror to see and the operator to lie on the engine with padding. A tough job but not as tough as removing the Transmission. It only worked for us because the bolts were not corroded in place. Might be worth a try.
Dee

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8 years 2 months ago #1307 by lloyd kocher
Replied by lloyd kocher on topic Re:Engine Mounts
I'm trying to remove the trans thru the aft head shower pan. Is it possible? Looks like a good idea to refit new mounts also.

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8 years 2 months ago #1315 by lloyd kocher
Replied by lloyd kocher on topic Re:Engine Mounts
Lots of hard work
I'm replacing a leaking Borg Warner trans and since I'm down there. Want to change the mounts also. Does anyone know a new engine mount that will fit. I'm looking for something to replace the current 31year old mounts. Are there any that have a bit more cushy anti vibration system that fit ?
Thanks in advance

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8 years 2 months ago #1316 by Joe Barnes
Replied by Joe Barnes on topic Re:Engine Mounts
We had a Lehman with a Borg Warner transmission. I had to replace the motor mount on the tranny since the bolt holding it to the motor mount flange had rusted and sheared off. I replaced all the motor mounts while I was at it.

Unless you want to pull the engine up through the cockpit, the best way to get the tranny off and out is via the head floor pan. It is pretty straightforward to get the shaft bolts out and then the bolts holding the bell housing to the engine. I did it by myself actually but it is a grunt though. I rigged a line around the tranny before I got the last bolt off and tied that to a 2x4 over the floor pan. I hauled it out with the line. Of course the motor mount flanges need to be undone too.

You need to brace the motor across the upper part of the bilge so it doesn't want to fall.

Putting the tranny back in is actually easier. It helps to put a temporary (sacrificial) locating stud or two on the engine to make it easier to mate the tranny to the engine You can put a couple of nuts on them to hold it while you put the other bolts in, and then take the studs out.

Aligning the motor mounts is actually the hardest part. I borrowed a hydraulic scissor jack made for tight spots. It is quite an art to get it done. You may want to have a pro do it. It took me many hours to get it right.

There are several different types of motor mounts but I don't know what the latest and best is. They have to be the right height, capacity, adjustment to work. It is tight getting to the aft port one, or at least it was on ours.

By the way, I replaced the old tranny with a refurbished one that had a different ratio to it. We had a Max-Prop. I got a huge savings in fuel usage and faster speed at lower rpm's. I could only find one with that ratio (don't remember what it was but it is dependent on the prop you have and the specific engine) and it rotated opposite from the old one. The Max-Prop was easy to change over but a regular prop would have to be replaced. Have fun.

BTW - Maggied Drum is now owned by a great family near Brisbane Australia. They are good sailors and not hesitant to take her on challenging cruises and plan to sail in Indonesian waters soon.

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8 years 2 months ago #1320 by lloyd kocher
Replied by lloyd kocher on topic Re:Engine Mounts
Looking for new engine mounts. The old ones are the dual flex df2000 31 years old. Are there newer mounts with les vibration?

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8 years 2 months ago #1321 by Gerry O'Donoghue
Replied by Gerry O'Donoghue on topic Re:Engine Mounts
This site has some good engine mount information. I bought from them and the service was excellent.

www.thermoboat.com/polyflex-001.htm

Gerry

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8 years 2 months ago #1323 by lloyd kocher
Replied by lloyd kocher on topic Re:Engine Mounts
I just removed my trans over the back of the engine.Tight fit but comes right out. There is no gasket between trans and eng. I decoupled the shaft slid it back 3 in . To lift the aft eng I placed 2 5/8 threaded rods thru the unused L brackets on the sides of the flywheel case ( these just happened to be on this engine) underneath used a steel 2by2 box beam 24 in resting on forward and aft eng mounting lip ( not eng mount) as a ack scre. However if the unused L is not available just block up the underside of the flywheel case. Then you can remove the mounting wings on the trans it's doable using a 5/8 swivel socket with extension ( use hardened good socket and take your time)

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8 years 1 month ago #1347 by lloyd kocher
Replied by lloyd kocher on topic Re:Engine Mounts
Just replaced engine mounts with the Australian Polyflex series. I had to pull the trans ( over the back of the engine) and decided to change the 30 year old mounts. The new mounts cut vibration and noise by half and the old Ford Lehman tractor purrs like a kitten. I used to hate motoring but now it's no problem.

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8 years 1 month ago #1350 by lloyd kocher
Replied by lloyd kocher on topic Re:Engine Mounts
Just removed old trans over the back of engine. Disconnect coupling, push shaft prop back 3 in . Remove 6 trans bolts and mounting "wings". Trans will disconnect tilt it down into the bilge.finally remove bell housing and damper plate. Tilt trans vertically and pull it up and over the back of eng. Note the engine must be blocked up or supported near the flywheel area since the aft mounts are on the trans. I put new damper plate and eng mounts since I had it all exposed anyway.The 31 year old mounts were trashed an I installed Polyflex cut vib and noise by half.

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