Help with a wild problem

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4 weeks 12 hours ago #3315 by Jim phillips
Help with a wild problem was created by Jim phillips
Here goes...
Got the fuel sorted out, recycled 75 plus gallons of crappy diesel and cleaned a bad saddle tank and added a new Moeller day tank, two new Racor filter and a third fuel filter to the engine, so we know the fuel is great. The mechanic rebuilt the injector pump. Engine starts and purrs, no smoke, no diesel sheen and no diesel in the oil or water.
So we do a sea trail and I checked the day tank and we used 11 gallons in 45 minutes. So I topped off and put 1 gallon marks and did a second run, 12 GPH at 2000 RPM, everyone is perplexed.

Our engine is a very rare Industrial Ford 192 CID marinized by OSCO, not a Lehman, I know as I found the sales guy from the 70's who sold this engine!. They were used for forklifts and irrigation pumps and the original owner took immaculate care of her, shocking of how clean the head and top end looks like new inside. See photo.
Please weigh in on my gameplan, I have found a head in good shape I can buy and can get new injectors (which the rebuild guy said both could be the issue) for head and injectors $450 and I have sets of head gaskets and exhaust gaskets that came with the boat. I don't know if any of you have pulled engines, getting to the tranny plate bolts is a nightmare. God bless Ted Brewer on the cockpit floor design for lifting, but still at the dock is not on my list of fun things to do as it weighs 550 dry without the bolt-ons.
So my plan, buy the used head and have it checked- cleaned, relap the valves and replace any that are not good, use any off the old one if I find any issues as backups. Take the entire head down to our Whitby (12 hours each way)
Take to old head off, check the cylinder walls and pistons for signs of wear and scoring. If they are good put the new head on, purge the fuel and add new oil and sea trail again. If she drinks fuel, its got to be the pistons and I will have a rebuilt head already done and ready before I have to pull the beast!
Pistons, rings and bearings, seals etc. are tough to come by so I'm hoping I can get her running.
The mechanics think it really could be the head and the injectors, but it is still a mystery as the boat does not smoke, starts super easy and the oil looks great, and no sheen on the water?
One mechanic thought the return rail might have been plumbed to the wrong tank so we routed it to the day tank to have a perfect closed system, same high burn rate.
If it was a Lehman, all would be easy. The mechanic that rebuilt the injection pump ($1800 late last year) said do a leak down test, but when you add new injectors and buy one extra as he would need to weld a hose fitting to do the test, then the hourly rate, I can rebuild the entire engine for that cost.

So I think I get the new head and injectors for $450 and give it a go. Your ideas?

I have a Perkins 4.108 block that I have been trying to collect parts for over time, needs injectors, injector pump, harness and a tranny... as a plan B.

Perspective in all of this, my wife was able to walk from the car down the dock to the boat! No wheelchair or walker... so I am so humbled and thankful, there is a lesson in this. Hopefully as I get this motor fixed , her broken back and foot will be ready for her to sail home!

Thanks all,
Jim and Lisa
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4 weeks 8 hours ago #3316 by Steven Lott
Replied by Steven Lott on topic Help with a wild problem
Diesel engines generally burn between 0.380 & 0.450 lbs/hp hour. (See www.boatingmag.com/calculating-fuel-consumption/ for example)

At full power, an 80 HP Lehman can (theoretically) burn 4.2 to 5 gallons per hour. (Pragmatically, you're often operating at a much lower HP at 2,000 RPM, so you should burn less.)

I suspect that either fuel is still leaking somewhere (oil pan? deep bilge?) or the engine is producing 160 HP.

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4 weeks 6 hours ago #3317 by Scott Lee
Replied by Scott Lee on topic Help with a wild problem
Wow, that's a puzzler. Could it be a plumbing problem? I doubt you burned 23 gallons of fuel in under two hours without smoke or fuel in the water or fuel in the bilge, etc. Did you check the other fuel tanks to see if their level increased? Maybe either a bad valve or valve setting on your fuel selection manifold or maybe fuel being siphoned back to the original tank. I suspect the fuel went somewhere besides into your engine.

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4 weeks 6 hours ago #3318 by Jim phillips
Replied by Jim phillips on topic Help with a wild problem
Steven,
So the guy that sold the motor to the first owner said that this is much smaller than a Lehman 120 and 80, I looked it up and it says Ford 192D produces 52 HP at 2400 RPM, he also said 2000 is the sweet spot. He guessed that with the age 1974 and condition we should be burning around .75 and a gallon an hour with a clean prop and bottom. My wife thinks we were 30 minutes round trip at slack tide so your right something is amiss because we emptied the day tank (12 gallons).
I checked the oil pan and no increase in levels, the bilge is spotless, Not a drop. The other mechanic guessed that with two 80 gallon saddle tanks and a closed off keel tank the injector return could have been dumping the fuel in a tank, but we took the rail return line and plumbed it into the day tank for our next tests and the same burn rate. Even though there was zero smoke and we could not see a sheen, that is my guess, fuel is going out the tailpipe and the engine is not getting great compression to make the smoke? He said these engines have had issues between cylinder 3 and 4 inside the block? So I will see, may be a disaster under the head?. Steven, the returns are brass so the inside of the valve train and the head is crazy spotless (as in the photo), can fuel be getting in there and not go into the galleries down into the oil pan and out the exhaust? Have you ever seen a top end as clean and spotless as ours. I rebuild gas engines all the time and not diesel, on gas engines, its always muck, never like new?
Can a bad head, valves and injectors really make a huge difference on this magnitude?
The mechanic said buy new injectors and swap the head as if I need to pull the engine due to pistons and rings...and rebuild it will be a great start?
The displacement is 192 CU INS and on the Ford Lehman 2712E is 254 CU Ins so what would you think should be the target GPH? The graph I found showed the Lehman 4D254 sweet spot right at 1800.
Ours ran smooth as glass at 2000 RPM, can running to low increase fuel use in a diesel?
Thank you for your help!
Jim and Lisa

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4 weeks 5 hours ago #3319 by Jim phillips
Replied by Jim phillips on topic Help with a wild problem
Scott,
Sorry we burned 11 gallons in around what I think was 1 hour. We thought the same thing on plumbing as a possibility. so we unhooked everything before the second sea trail and only had the day tank connected, with the return rail fuel line back into it also. What the local mechanics called a closed one tank system.
We added one new fuel line from the day tank to the Racors, then to a new fuel filter on the engine and one fuel return back to the day tank. All other lines were sealed. Everyone wanted to ensure fuel was not going to another unused tank. The keel tank is not hooked up at all as it was cleaned and leaky and I will pull it and replace it when we get home and on the hard. The Port saddle tank has never been cleaned so we not using that one. And the Starboard saddle tank I cleaned, we will run it through another pump we bought and a new large Racor to refill the day tank when I get this sorted.

As there are so many fuel switches/tubing we wanted them all ruled out.

My friend that works on diesel truck engines just called and said he thinks it could be bad injectors and valve issues, just like you he thinks it is pumping fuel overboard and he bets if I caught the exhaust water I would find a bunch of fuel. Never thought of catching the exhaust water? I pull the head and there might be a bad answer, hopefully its throw in the new head and injectors?

Thank you! I appreciate the help!

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4 weeks 4 hours ago #3320 by DAVID JONES
Replied by DAVID JONES on topic Help with a wild problem
You are obviously pumping fuel to somewhere. I guess I'm stating the obvious.

The question is where is the fuel going? Discover where it is going and then you may find the likely problem. Sounds like you have eliminated the fuel lines so all that's left is through the engine. Therefore it must be coming out the exhaust. Are you sure there is no oil sheen on the water? That much fuel has to show up somewhere. I don't know what else to tell you but to find where it's going and work backwards. I know, not.much help here...

dj

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3 weeks 6 days ago - 3 weeks 6 days ago #3321 by Steven Lott
Replied by Steven Lott on topic Help with a wild problem
Reading some Q&A on quora.com

1) coolant. While the engine is cold, it uses more fuel. A stuck cooling thermostat leaving the engine too cold during these short trips.

2) insufficient airflow. Check the air intakes. A quora user describes a rag sucked into the air intakes.
Last edit: 3 weeks 6 days ago by Steven Lott. Reason: Fix spelling

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3 weeks 6 days ago #3322 by Jim phillips
Replied by Jim phillips on topic Help with a wild problem
Again thank you, I kept checking the exhaust for smoke, should have captured outflow! Coolant he changed it every year but I have no idea on the thermostat. The engine temp sensor showed the engine was getting warm and staying so after idle.
I bought an infrared gun and marked three areas across the block for the trip and on the exhaust manifold to chart temps on our trip home so I would know if things were going south. Never got to use it.

I did not think to check the air intake, the engine and engine bay are crazy spotless clean. The previous owner took great care, the bilge is white and vacuumed/mopped and under the engine like a kitchen floor.

I never checked the air intake! She starts so easy, responds to the throttle like a Lambo and holds RPM's perfect, that's a new one I did not think of?

Thanks Jim!

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1 week 6 days ago #3327 by Jim phillips
Replied by Jim phillips on topic Help with a wild problem
To all,
So I got on Facebook"Recreational Marine Diesel Engine Maintenance & Repair Discussion Group" most everyone thinks the fuel is going to one of the many tanks on our boat. So I am going to do a 5 gallon tank run and ensure the fuel goes in and then recirculates. T Were heading down next weekend and doing another sea trail. I also am going to check the air intake, and the oil level again.
hank you all for your great help. The marine diesel facebook is amazing if any of you need help. I have rebuilt many engines of all sorts, diesels are new to me. I will let you all know how this pans out.
Jim and Lisa

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1 week 5 days ago #3332 by DAVID JONES
Replied by DAVID JONES on topic Help with a wild problem
Please keep us updated. I have to agree I feel the only way you could be going through that much fuel is that it must be getting pumped to somewhere either external or internal to the engine.

dj

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